Discuss the Ghostbusters movie that was released in 2016.
#4985967
Leslie Jones reflects on director Jason Reitman’s ‘unforgivable’ Ghostbusters comment

Yikes. Anyone hear what Leslie had to say about Jason Reitman?

Not good.

It seems Jones thinks some GB fans are losers.

Man. This could get interesting. Or ugly.

Edit: My original post made it seem like LJ said all GB fans were losers. I’ve edited it. She was referring to the fans who complained about the all female reboot(specifically the females portion). I was careless with how I worded my original post. Apologies.
Last edited by RichardLess on September 21st, 2023, 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#4985970
RichardLess wrote: September 20th, 2023, 12:33 pm Yikes. Anyone hear what Leslie had to say about Jason Reitman?
I mean, I just read the story, and, well... Dare I say, who cares? Just because she finds what Reitman said offensive doesn't mean it is.

"[...] trying to go back to the original technique and hand the movie back to the fans."

She seems to be twisting his words into : "Erasing our 2016 movie". Aykroyd said some wayyyyyy worst thing about the Reboot, so I don't get why we should be upset about a (very tactful) PR statement that doesn't mention Feig's version.

The question is : If he had not said that at all and just made the movie, would she be as incensed?
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#4985972
RichardLess wrote: September 20th, 2023, 12:33 pm It seems Jones thinks GB fans are losers.
That doesn't fairly reflect what Leslie said.
She doesn't think all Ghostbusters fans are losers, the ones who she views as losers are the fans who harassed her, her fellow castmembers and the film's production staff:
“The damage was done. Bringing up the idea of giving the movie ‘back to the fans’ was a pretty clear shout-out to all those losers who went after us for making an all-female film.”
#4985973
zeta otaku wrote: September 20th, 2023, 2:25 pm She didn't call GB Fans losers. She called the ones who attacked her and the rest of the 2016 actors and crew losers.
It surprises me how easily this false framing device keeps coming up.

Regarding Leslie point of view. I can understand her.

She got death threats, racism and her personal profile was hacked and her private photos leaked online.

Besides, Jason did apologize and rephrase his remark about giving GB back to the fans. She was right the damage was already done and I can understand her being very sour about it, because ATC was supposed to be her big chance. Instead she got death threats and an insulting low wage.

That being said: it's in the past. She explained why Jason remark hurt. She felt it was unforgivable and another stab in the back in order to gain some PR points. Intended or not. I agree it was a stupid thing to say. Jason explained and apologized and for me it's easy to accept his apology, but I'm not in her shoes.
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#4985974
frankov wrote: September 20th, 2023, 2:27 pm She seems to be twisting his words into : "Erasing our 2016 movie". Aykroyd said some wayyyyyy worst thing about the Reboot, so I don't get why we should be upset about a (very tactful) PR statement that doesn't mention Feig's version.

The question is : If he had not said that at all and just made the movie, would she be as incensed?
Yes.
This Post Contains Spoilers
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#4985976
Just that 2019 tweet alone is incorrect. It wasn't a redo of GB with men, it was a continuation of the original movies and had both men and women using packs...

But idk, it still feels like we're missing a lot of context. Were they promised at least one sequel in their contract or at least by Feig? If they were, then I could totally get her reaction. Sure, the vitriol they got during the movie's run was enough to keep the pot boiling but if they were promised more movies then 2-3 years later, no follow up from Sony or anyone, then Afterlife started getting teased - - it's natural for Jones and the rest to feel bamboozled. And sure, the way Jason phrased it made it worse. He apologized but I'm not sure what more he can say. Maybe they should have a nice face-to-face convo. Idk. I was a little surprised she brought it up in this article with her wording basically unchanged, guess Jason's apology didn't do much for her and that's her choice, can't fault her for that. But it's cat nip for all the clickbait sites that will then stir up the Internet once again.
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#4985977
Alphagaia wrote: September 20th, 2023, 4:22 pm I'm a little confused.

Why are you showing her response to Jason as if that proofs she would say something regardless? Isn't that the opposite of your point?
She wasn't responding to Jason, she made that tweet a month before he made the comment that he was "giving it back to the fans."

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/20 ... sters-fans
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#4985979
Just that 2019 tweet alone is incorrect. It wasn't a redo of GB with men, it was a continuation of the original movies and had both men and women using packs...

But idk, it still feels like we're missing a lot of context. Were they promised at least one sequel in their contract or at least by Feig? If they were, then I could totally get her reaction. Sure, the vitriol they got during the movie's run was enough to keep the pot boiling but if they were promised more movies then 2-3 years later, no follow up from Sony or anyone, then Afterlife started getting teased - - it's natural for Jones and the rest to feel bamboozled. And sure, the way Jason phrased it made it worse. He apologized but I'm not sure what more he can say. Maybe they should have a nice face-to-face convo. Idk. I was a little surprised she brought it up in this article with her wording basically unchanged, guess Jason's apology didn't do much for her and that's her choice, can't fault her for that. But it's cat nip for all the clickbait sites that will then stir up the Internet once again.
She's not just reflecting. Leslie has a new book she's trying to promote. I really like Leslie but I think she's trying to take advantage of the release of Firehouse and stirring things up again. I am surprised to hear that she got such low pay after Paul was adamant about pushing for women's equity in such matters. But yeah, as always i'm looking forwad to round 99 of the clicbait articles. I'm surprised the #not my ghostbusters journo's aren't at it already.
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#4985989
Jason never needed to apologize. He knows what the fans wanted and went for it.

The harassment of Leslie Jones was extremely rotten and unwarranted though.
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#4985991
SpaceBallz wrote: September 20th, 2023, 5:31 pm
Alphagaia wrote: September 20th, 2023, 4:22 pm I'm a little confused.

Why are you showing her response to Jason as if that proofs she would say something regardless? Isn't that the opposite of your point?
She wasn't responding to Jason, she made that tweet a month before he made the comment that he was "giving it back to the fans."

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/20 ... sters-fans
In all fairness, she was responding to this quote from Jason, from a few days before her tweet:
"I've always thought of myself as the first Ghostbusters fan, when I was a 6-year-old visiting the set. I wanted to make a movie for all the other fans. This is the next chapter in the original franchise. It is not a reboot. What happened in the '80s happened in the '80s, and this is set in the present day."
Which then spiraled into his next announcement about giving it back to the fans. But I agree she would automatically dislike the fact ATC wouldn't get a sequel.

That's understandable from her point of view. She got the worst of all the vitriol and for nothing.
Davideverona wrote: September 20th, 2023, 10:46 pm I'm still convinced that the 90 percent of the hate this movie got was because it was a reboot and not the sequel the fans were waiting for years. Women Ghostbusters were never an issue.

Then there was a 10 percent of people who were extremely ugly.
I'm never sure what people want to get out of these kind of remarks when they downplay misogyny with percentages one pulls out of the thin air.

Are you saying we should ignore the 10 percent? More importantly: how can you be so sure it's 'just' 10 percent? And does it really matter if it's 'only' 10 percent when you are the receiver of such relentless hate, threats and worse?
#4985992
Davideverona wrote: September 20th, 2023, 10:46 pm I'm still convinced that the 90 percent of the hate this movie got was because it was a reboot and not the sequel the fans were waiting for years. Women Ghostbusters were never an issue.

Then there was a 10 percent of people who were extremely ugly.
You are correct.
#4985994
Kingpin wrote: September 20th, 2023, 2:36 pm
RichardLess wrote: September 20th, 2023, 12:33 pm It seems Jones thinks GB fans are losers.
That doesn't fairly reflect what Leslie said.
She doesn't think all Ghostbusters fans are losers, the ones who she views as losers are the fans who harassed her, her fellow castmembers and the film's production staff:
“The damage was done. Bringing up the idea of giving the movie ‘back to the fans’ was a pretty clear shout-out to all those losers who went after us for making an all-female film.”
Yeah that’s my bad I wasn’t specific enough. Apologies.


One of the ugliest legacies of GB16 as a film is the (perhaps subconscious?) racism it perpetuates. I know Fieg and the studio liked talking up the all female aspect of the movie but all that goes down the drain for me when you see the cultural make up of the team. I seriously think they went “ok. The original had 3 white people and 1 black person who comes in 1/3rd of the way thru the movie, isn’t a scientist or a founding member. So let’s get 3 white women and a black lady who isn’t a founding member or scientist” Like…you couldn’t mix it up a bit? You didn’t think that having one black woman would focus all the attention on her? Did you see what happened with Force Awakens & the black storm trooper? Why couldn’t there be two black women? Or an Asian woman? Sandra Oh would’ve made an excellent Ghostbuster.

I just look at the cultural make up of that GB16 team and cringe. They knew exactly what they were doing. It doesn’t help the kind of character Patti is either. Bugging her eyes out, loud, “street smart”. Like ok have that character. But maybe give us something else? You jut know Ernie Hudson saw that for what it was. She was the token black Ghostbuster. The token non white Ghostbuster. That’s what Leslie Jones should be fighting against. Yes people were ugly to her and there’s zero excuse for that. But don’t tell me Sony and Fieg didn’t see that coming a mile away. How could they not? Yes you put a foot forward by making an all female GB team. But you took two steps back by making them the exact same cultural background as the original.
#4985998
RichardLess wrote: September 21st, 2023, 4:12 am It doesn’t help the kind of character Patti is either. Bugging her eyes out, loud, “street smart”.
People keep using Patty's street smart as if it's a stereotype for a black person to know the (way of the) streets when in this movie it's a subversion of the trope because she has in-depth knowledge of the history of NY. Not because she on the streets a lot, but because she finds it interesting and reads a lot.
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#4986000
There were plenty of articles that brought up her portraying a stereotypical loud black woman. It isn't just a few people on the forum here.
#4986001
I noticed the dialogue went from 'street smart' to 'stereotypical loud black woman'. Those things are not the same.

Regardless, there also plenty articles that thought her portrayal was much more subdued than what they got from the trailer, so I don't see why this is important to note?
#4986002
Alphagaia wrote: September 21st, 2023, 8:19 am
RichardLess wrote: September 21st, 2023, 4:12 am It doesn’t help the kind of character Patti is either. Bugging her eyes out, loud, “street smart”.
People keep using Patty's street smart as if it's a stereotype for a black person to know the (way of the) streets when in this movie it's a subversion of the trope because she has in-depth knowledge of the history of NY. Not because she on the streets a lot, but because she finds it interesting and reads a lot.
No. It’s not the street smarts thing by itself that’s racist. It’s all of it together. Another black character who isn’t a founding member? Isn’t connected to the main characters? And 3 white women with 1 black person and it’s the black person who is the odd one out? Come on.

If she was their friend from the start? If she street smart and book smart? She’s working at the subway to work her way thru the college? Ok. Now we are on equal footing. But when a movie in 2016 has the same damn racial make up as the movie it’s remaking while also trying to represent a step forward for representation & women? It’s a huge fail. And I’m not just picking on it cause I hate the movie. I don’t like Afterlife either but it at least gives us some new cultural make up, ya know?
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#4986003
Alphagaia wrote: September 20th, 2023, 11:52 pm
Davideverona wrote: September 20th, 2023, 10:46 pm I'm still convinced that the 90 percent of the hate this movie got was because it was a reboot and not the sequel the fans were waiting for years. Women Ghostbusters were never an issue.

Then there was a 10 percent of people who were extremely ugly.
I'm never sure what people want to get out of these kind of remarks when they downplay misogyny with percentages one pulls out of the thin air.

Are you saying we should ignore the 10 percent? More importantly: how can you be so sure it's 'just' 10 percent? And does it really matter if it's 'only' 10 percent when you are the receiver of such relentless hate, threats and worse?
I don't know about specific percentages, but I also think that a lot of the audience problem with GB16 is the reboot aspect (along with a host of other things, but that is the thing that bothers me most about it). Without that, I'd just find it annoying and ignore it, but the sense of "replacing" the original puts me off altogether.
It's true that there are horrible trolls and commenters who said terrible things, but to blame the film's failure mostly on misogyny and racism isn't really accurate. Maybe it's easier for the filmmakers to say that the film failed because the fans are terrible people instead of taking responsibility for bad judgment.

I have zero problem with women as Ghostbusters, and neither do several fans, based on their reception to Afterlife. As a woman myself, I'd rather see the characters written well instead of "heyy there are women in this. That means you like it, right?" no matter what the actual quality is. That's just another kind of insulting.

As for Leslie Jones, the vitriol online is inexcusable and nobody should be receiving death threats. That said, Jason Reitman's comments about his sequel were truthful. He's also made some nice comments about 2016.
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#4986004
RichardLess wrote: September 21st, 2023, 10:42 am
Alphagaia wrote: September 21st, 2023, 8:19 am

People keep using Patty's street smart as if it's a stereotype for a black person to know the (way of the) streets when in this movie it's a subversion of the trope because she has in-depth knowledge of the history of NY. Not because she on the streets a lot, but because she finds it interesting and reads a lot.
No. It’s not the street smarts thing by itself that’s racist. It’s all of it together. Another black character who isn’t a founding member? Isn’t connected to the main characters? And 3 white women with 1 black person and it’s the black person who is the odd one out? Come on.

If she was their friend from the start? If she street smart and book smart? She’s working at the subway to work her way thru the college? Ok. Now we are on equal footing. But when a movie in 2016 has the same damn racial make up as the movie it’s remaking while also trying to represent a step forward for representation & women? It’s a huge fail. And I’m not just picking on it cause I hate the movie. I don’t like Afterlife either but it at least gives us some new cultural make up, ya know?
I actually agree that the movie could have been a better racial representation if they kept Leslie in the role that was intended for her at first. Which is why I didn't address those points. I have some thoughts why it is, the way it is, but I'd like to focus on the street smart thing first.

Furthermore, I wouldn't call that a complete failure just because the movie didn't solve all the racial problems Hollywood has as well as it's female representation. It's a step. Not the solution.

But I digress: My actual problem here is why you use the term 'street smarts' at all, when I don't find that kind of portrayal in the movie. More the opposite, don't you agree?

@Dancing Toaster: I feel there is a lot of grey area between 10% of complaints came from misogyny and most of the complaints came from misogyny. I'm not convinced it's either, actually.
#4986005
deadderek wrote: September 20th, 2023, 9:45 pm Jason never needed to apologize. He knows what the fans wanted and went for it.

The harassment of Leslie Jones was extremely rotten and unwarranted though.
Exactly. His statement was completely harmless. The fans wanted a 3rd movie. The public wanted a 3rd movie. Years of false starts. Then we lose Harold Ramis and a movie that should NEVER have been remade was. And not only that but it ignited an ugly cultural war. It got political.

I don’t usually believe in conspiracy theories but I have a theory that’s a bit out there. You notice when some franchises include a black character or Asian character and all of a sudden the actor is just harassed endlessly on Twitter? While I’m sure some of it is legit I do wonder how much of it is created by Russia or China. Bots or troll farms. Think about it. Fast and Furious has a multicultural cast and no one goes ape shit at them on Twitter. But when these older iconic franchises like Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Ghostbusters or James Bond have a new character who’s black? That actor is harassed. I think Russia or China isn’t just going after our politics. They are going after our culture. What holds us together? Our shared love of THINGS. And what better way to sow dissent and vitriol than to go after the big touchstones of western culture. Again, this is just a theory. But I do wonder. I mean…Star Wars had a black character in Lando Calrissian and all of a sudden people went nuts over a black storm trooper? Or an Asian Rebel?

I dunno. Maybe I just don’t want to believe so many fans can be that ugly but we only started to really hear about this type of behavior when Twitter came around. Sure you’d occasionally see some ignorant racist comments on fan forums in the past before social media, but not like this. Not at this level.

I really remembering thinking the Star Wars racism made no sense. I mean…all racism makes no sense. But why would anyone care about a black storm trooper? Maybe a few people but it was everywhere at the time.

I’ve been on a few GB fan forums over the years. Sure we’ve seen some racism here and there but it’s incredibly rare. But you’re telling me there are GB fans out there trying to hack Leslie Jones? Wouldn’t see these people on the forums all the time if they were they cared THAT MUCH? Wouldn’t we see a constant stream on hatred and bigotry?

Maybe I’m just being naive. I certainly don’t want to excuse or give excuses or make it seem like this isn’t a real problem. But I do wonder how much of this twitter hatred and racism is maybe something bigger planned by another country trying to get us to become further and further apart. Because if so, it works.
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#4986006
RichardLess wrote: September 21st, 2023, 11:22 amMaybe I just don’t want to believe so many fans can be that ugly but we only started to really hear about this type of behavior when Twitter came around.
I think that we do have to accept that a portion of every fanbase is caustic, if not outright toxic.
I strongly suspect most of the hate aimed at Jodie Whittaker when she became the 13th incarnation of The Doctor was from real people... rather than bot accounts, and the same is the case with the disgusting remarks I've been seeing made about Ncuti Gatwa who will become the 15th incarnation of the Doctor later this year... Hypothetical Russian or Chinese bots attacking American cultural institutions can make sense on paper... But it seems less convincing that they'd go after British cultural institutions given the UK's smaller standing on the international stage.

And we definitely saw signs of this type of behaviour long before social media was even a concept... There was plenty of toxicity directed at Star Trek: The Next Generation from some of the Star Trek fandom when it became clear the new show wasn't going to feature Kirk, Spock, Uhura or any of the original cast.
RichardLess wrote: September 21st, 2023, 11:22 amBut you’re telling me there are GB fans out there trying to hack Leslie Jones? Wouldn’t see these people on the forums all the time if they were they cared THAT MUCH? Wouldn’t we see a constant stream on hatred and bigotry?
We did see a constant stream of it on here from certain users, and across plenty of the Facebook-based Ghostbusters pages.
We might not've heard from that user who hacked Leslie Jones because for all we know, they might've been someone we'd ended up having to ban from here.

Alternately though, they might've been that type of person to commit the act but not feel the need to brag about it... For every hate-filled bigot who wears their intollerance openly, there's plenty others who manage to hide their hate behind a respectable or innocent-looking facade.

I can believe some of our community were as bad as we read about because one of the worst of the trolls who targetted Paul Feig used to be in the same Ghostbusters costuming group as me, and was someone I used to consider a friend due to our shared love of Ghostbusters and Doctor Who.
#4986049
Kingpin wrote: September 21st, 2023, 12:35 pm
RichardLess wrote: September 21st, 2023, 11:22 amMaybe I just don’t want to believe so many fans can be that ugly but we only started to really hear about this type of behavior when Twitter came around.
I think that we do have to accept that a portion of every fanbase is caustic, if not outright toxic.
I strongly suspect most of the hate aimed at Jodie Whittaker when she became the 13th incarnation of The Doctor was from real people... rather than bot accounts, and the same is the case with the disgusting remarks I've been seeing made about Ncuti Gatwa who will become the 15th incarnation of the Doctor later this year... Hypothetical Russian or Chinese bots attacking American cultural institutions can make sense on paper... But it seems less convincing that they'd go after British cultural institutions given the UK's smaller standing on the international stage.

And we definitely saw signs of this type of behaviour long before social media was even a concept... There was plenty of toxicity directed at Star Trek: The Next Generation from some of the Star Trek fandom when it became clear the new show wasn't going to feature Kirk, Spock, Uhura or any of the original cast.
RichardLess wrote: September 21st, 2023, 11:22 amBut you’re telling me there are GB fans out there trying to hack Leslie Jones? Wouldn’t see these people on the forums all the time if they were they cared THAT MUCH? Wouldn’t we see a constant stream on hatred and bigotry?
We did see a constant stream of it on here from certain users, and across plenty of the Facebook-based Ghostbusters pages.
We might not've heard from that user who hacked Leslie Jones because for all we know, they might've been someone we'd ended up having to ban from here.

Alternately though, they might've been that type of person to commit the act but not feel the need to brag about it... For every hate-filled bigot who wears their intollerance openly, there's plenty others who manage to hide their hate behind a respectable or innocent-looking facade.

I can believe some of our community were as bad as we read about because one of the worst of the trolls who targetted Paul Feig used to be in the same Ghostbusters costuming group as me, and was someone I used to consider a friend due to our shared love of Ghostbusters and Doctor Who.
Agreed. I've also distanced myself from others based on their vitriolic viewpoints in the world of both Ghostbusters and Doctor Who. I've found myself at a point in my life where if you are unable to allow or feel the need to insult others for enjoying things, simply because you dislike them, you're not really a person I need in my life. I'm not saying people can't dislike things, but if you feel the need to insult me or others for having differing viewpoints, I'm good.
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