[Ebobhazard84]

@Venkman1984 Do people have viable legal options? It seems like a lot of the guys who didn't get their packs are US-based while he (clearly) is UK-based.

[Venkman1984]

@Venkman1984 Do people have viable legal options? It seems like a lot of the guys who didn't get their packs are US-based while he (clearly) is UK-based.

They sure do. They can get together file local police reports, then hire attorneys and even go to interpol. That option would make it really serious and he'd never be allowed back in the united states again. I'd also HIGHLY reccomend contacting the bank they used and file for fraud. What would happen is the money would literally be taken from Dave's account and it would start to show him in the negative with his financial institution which they would then start to attempt to recover and when they can't he'll be charged with felony fraud over 2500 and theft. Probably end up in prison. That's exactly what would happen here in the states. But again people here need to organize.

[Ebobhazard84]

Oh jeez, this runs deeper than I ever imagined.

[Astomp82]

I agree. Something similar to a class action lawsuit but in a smaller scale is probably warranted here. I think the US-UK thing does complicate things, but doesn’t make it impossible.

I wondered how a fraud claim with the bank/credit card would work. I didn’t know if they needed to actually obtain the money from him in order for it to come back to you. If he’s already in the negative, it seemed like a wasted effort.

[Astomp82]

I feel like at this point those of us with unfulfilled orders should try to connect in some kind of group chat off of here. Something that isn’t public.

[Venkman1984]

I agree. Something similar to a class action lawsuit but in a smaller scale is probably warranted here. I think the US-UK thing does complicate things, but doesn’t make it impossible.

I wondered how a fraud claim with the bank/credit card would work. I didn’t know if they needed to actually obtain the money from him in order for it to come back to you. If he’s already in the negative, it seemed like a wasted effort.

The bank would just start taking the money from his accounts used regardless if he's in the negative or not.

[Jtmills]

I don’t have the kind of money to hire a lawyer, but I’m out almost five grand for ordering a heritage pack. The only time he ever responded to messages was when it involved him making more money, like contributing to one of his pack raffles. If anyone has a step by step guide we can all try to do to get refunded, it would be appreciated. I used PayPal to pay him.

[Mercifull]

Hi

I'm the winner of the pheobe pack and I'm still waiting.

Are you based in the UK? I can't remember whether the raffle was open worldwide or just to the UK. IMO it seems a bit silly to try to raffle something as difficult as a Proton Pack to ship anywhere outside of the country you're already in! Especially one already assembled and therefore harder to pack safely. A lot of the horror stories are from people who are in America or Europe, ordering. Not that it excuses it, but it does go some way to explaining it.

[Venkman1984]

Hi

I'm the winner of the pheobe pack and I'm still waiting.

Are you based in the UK? I can't remember whether the raffle was open worldwide or just to the UK. IMO it seems a bit silly to try to raffle something as difficult as a Proton Pack to ship anywhere outside of the country you're already in! Especially one already assembled and therefore harder to pack safely. A lot of the horror stories are from people who are in America or Europe, ordering. Not that it excuses it, but it does go some way to explaining it.

Both raffles the phoebe and the frozen empire pack were open to everyone at a cost of 50 per entry. The packs were already complete when the drawing was done the amount of people showed he cleared more than 8500 dollars EACH pack. Zero excuse not to ship out the packs. US or UK doesn't matter. At this point it's clearly another scam.

[Mercifull]

If you don't get your pack, then I, and hundreds others, also deserve refunds for our entries.

[Astomp82]

I do think the raffles were out and out scams and I understand why facebook kept shutting his pages down.

[ALEXV49]

So that's it! The dreaded moment has arrived. On a personal note, how stupid could I have been to give him so much money, and especially to have believed all his lies? All the signs were there that it was a scam, but the dream of owning a pack was so strong that I didn't think it was possible for enthusiasts to rip each other off. But if!!!! Remember his various fifteen-page messages once a year where he tried to justify himself with more or less valid arguments, where he made us out to be the mean impatient customers, and he the poor harassed salesman? paying 3000 euros for a pack I'd never get didn't give me the right to have a statement of my order. What a shame, and what a poor guy. Besides, where are his loyal supporters, especially Toby, who was supposed to help him with his communications? It's strange we don't hear you as much now. As for me, I live in France, and among the people scammed, are there others who are also French so that we can exchange ideas? It's clear that this scam must not go unpunished, but I honestly don't know how to proceed. I paid 3,000 euros four years ago via PayPal, so I have no recourse against PayPal. The same goes for my bank, insofar as the transaction was carried out by a payment service. Then, if I contact a lawyer, his services won't be free, and I've already lost enough money as it is. Besides, if dear David is up to his ears in debt, he'll never pay. That's how it is in France, you can have thousands of debts, and if you're not solvent you won't pay a single cent. It's heartbreaking, but unfortunately it's the truth.
Today I'm furious, but I don't see how I can get justice, the process seems very complicated. I look forward to hearing from you, and if you're French, please speak out.

[Mercifull]

Toby is a good egg. So either Dave’s personal issues are genuine and therefor it’s not a scam (and tbh I still think it’s all far too elaborate to be a scam, there’s much easier ways to do that) or he’s also had the wool pulled over his eyes by someone he considers a friend.

If you run a raffle in the UK though and do not supply the prize to the winner then EVERYONE has grounds to take to court to return that entry fee. Although the reality is that it would cost more than you’d probably ever get back. If the Phoebe and FE packs were fully built and available I’m really struggling to understand why they weren’t just sent out. Being busy or ill or whatever just doesn’t cut it as an excuse, it’s a simple logistics job to package up and ship. It doesn’t even need to be done by Dave.

[Mercifull]

For the record I do online raffles a fair bit and recently won a £1300 3D printer from a £2 entry. I got it about a week after winning. That’s how you operate raffles.

It’s been a year now since the FE pack raffle, significantly longer since the Phoebe pack.

[Diamond Dave]

I used PayPal rather than a credit card, and I think unfortunately I'm out of luck as I think PayPal only allows six or nine months to request a refund for non-receipt of goods (and I ordered February 2022, so I'm well out of the window). So, I'm out USD $4,801 which I took out of my retirement investment account (so, really I've lost more as that money would have been compounding interest had I left it in there).

Can anyone recommend a prop maker of proven reliability and honesty who makes comparable or better packs?

[Venkman1984]

Everyone here in this thread US or UK needs to go to local law enforcement and show all your documents, payments made, bank statements, private messages, EVERYTHING. You need to start the ball rolling. File a complaint. Start there. That much is free. When enough or all of you have done that it will be too big for police in the US and UK to ignore. But action needs to be taken. If all anyone does is talk about how much they lost on this thread instead of attempting to take action then you will never see any kind of justice. That's where you start. Create a timeline of events and bring it to the authorities.

[Al_Dente]

If there are any uk based groups organising a legal action I would like to be part of it please. I don’t have a clue how to go about it. Please contact me if you can. I’ve been waiting for almost 4 years.

[Astomp82]

Same for me on the US side. I think we need to find another platform to communicate/organize on. Not sure if US and UK have to be separate endeavors or if we can combine efforts.

[Al_Dente]

I agree. I’m not sure if it would have to be a separate investigation, but any information would be appreciated. Maybe a WhatsApp group would be good.

[edspengler]

Regardless of what has or has not taken place here are a few general thoughts. This is not legal advice and is generic to any situation where you feel you may have been wronged.

A good place to start with anything is to begin by writing everything out by creating a timeline of your experience. Write down dates, what happened, what transactions took place in what avenue and how much. Write out the facts only, avoid any emotional attachment or opinions that subject to alternate interpretation. Who, what, when, where… For example:

On this day, I bought this, paid with my Visa card on PayPal. I communicated such and such on this date and received a response stating such and such on this date.

I communicated such and such on what platform on this date and received the following response on this date.

Write everything out from beginning to end. Then gather records that prove everything in your narrative. Make it easy to understand, avoid the use of jargon, and if you must use it take the time to define the terms.

Unfortunately, this can take time and effort, and emotional investment.

This would provide material should you seek assistance from a professional advisor.

[DoctorPepper]

Does anyone have a screenshot of him denying to giving a refund?

[Astomp82]

Does anyone have a screenshot of him denying to giving a refund?

My understanding is that if that was in a message he would address the other questions in the message and completely ignore the refund. I want to say at least one person on this board did get a refund though.

[Venkman1984]

Does anyone have a screenshot of him denying to giving a refund?

From the messages I've seen here and some of the people I've talked to personally he's either said he was "too far along in the process " for a refund which I'm sure everyone now knows is a lie or he said he'd refund the money and just flat out never did because he spent it to live and travel to NYC and Dragoncon and who else knows what. But I guarantee it wasn't spend on building packs.

[edspengler]

I want to say at least one person on this board did get a refund though.

I had purchased a shell and MB. I requested and paid for MB bracket mounting and a set of resin spacers separately. I did receive a refund for both transactions after discussing it with him.

[Venkman1984]

Same for me on the US side. I think we need to find another platform to communicate/organize on. Not sure if US and UK have to be separate endeavors or if we can combine efforts.

If someone with WhatsApp is willing to provide a number here you can have everyone enter and then vet people by username to make sure no-one is entering that shouldn't be. That's a start. Also the most important thing as I mentioned before is going and gathering your records, and I would highly recommend taking screenshots of any and all conversations had with anyone related to proton props.

[Jtmills]

I took all my screenshots of my chats. I expect he’s going to close up shop on both Facebook and Instagram once he sees people are going to go after him for their money. I was warned by a GB fan I met, in person, that he had heard he was unloading all his supplies to another pack builder, and when I questioned him, out of concern, he said that wasn’t true. Now it seems likely that it was true.

Can anybody supply his full name and any information about him in this thread, if we pursue legal action?

[Mercifull]

I don't think it would be considered doxxing to supply a full name, considering people have parted with cash, but if an admin wishes to delete this post I would understand.

Proton Props UK is run by David Rotheram who lives in Plymouth. Any further information you'll have to find yourself. He's relatively easy to find as he's been in a few news articles (nothing sinister but they are unrelated to ghostbusters so I've not linked them) and has been active on social platforms in the past. He also likes a good pasty as well... but then don't we all.

[Venkman1984]

I took all my screenshots of my chats. I expect he’s going to close up shop on both Facebook and Instagram once he sees people are going to go after him for their money. I was warned by a GB fan I met, in person, that he had heard he was unloading all his supplies to another pack builder, and when I questioned him, out of concern, he said that wasn’t true. Now it seems likely that it was true.

Can anybody supply his full name and any information about him in this thread, if we pursue legal action?

This should also help tremendously in tracking him. https://uk.linkedin.com/in/david-rotheram-71a0661a1

[Jtmills]

I can’t be the only one addressing this issue. When was the last time the guy even delivered on a pack order? Only one I can find is in 2021.

[Mercifull]

This should also help tremendously in tracking him. https://uk.linkedin.com/in/david-rotheram-71a0661a1

Aaaaaand, it's gone.